Hello, and welcome to The Studio Demands It, an exercise in creative thinking where we will challenge ourselves to conceptualize, pitch, and craft a film based on the stipulations of a hypothetical Hollywood overlord, the studio. I am TC DeWitt, and joining me as always is my cohost, Jim. When did you start going by Jim Berzelik? Hello, Jim. Hello.
T.C.:Hi. We'll get back to it. What are we doing here? We we talk movies all the time, and in particular, we complain about the choices made by the blockbusters that are out there. And, of course, as good nerds do, we automatically assume that we could do a better job.
T.C.:Right, Jim?
Jim:It's it's true.
T.C.:We it's That we can do a better job or that we think we could do a better job?
Jim:We can. Okay. We could we could do that.
T.C.:Or this series Yeah. People are still listening. Absolutely. We've proven we can.
Jim:Right? What what's what's the what do they say? Three hours is what you need for expertise? We we got that. We had Somewhere between three
T.C.:and ten hours.
Jim:Yeah. And we got that down.
T.C.:Yeah. We're nice. I mean, yeah. That's amazing. We've probably done, like, 10,000.
Jim:At least.
T.C.:Yeah. I'm a filmmaker. You're a filmmaker. And so we're not without of our without our experiences. How are you, Jim?
Jim:I'm good.
T.C.:Yeah. Why did I call
Jim:you Jim? When did happen? Doing doing well. Happened The viewers wanna know. In the Listeners.
Jim:Seventh grade
T.C.:Mhmm.
Jim:One day, my mom asked me, do you want to keep being called Jimmy, or do you wanna be Jim? And I thought about it for a second, and I said, I'll do Jim.
T.C.:I'll do Jim. Yeah. No more Jimmy? Yeah. Alright.
T.C.:Jim, Jim, Jiminy, Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim,
Jim:I said no. I'm just Jim now.
T.C.:See, was always TC.
Jim:I've Yeah.
T.C.:I have been Tim to less people than I can count on one hand, which would be four. TC was the name on my baby basket in the hospital. My my grandfather was like, what does TC mean? My mom was like, well, that's what we're gonna call.
Jim:I'm not gonna call him that.
T.C.:So me and my grandma called me Tim, and they called me Timmy when I was actually, they just called me Timmy. I don't think they ever called me Tim. And a couple of my cousins still to this day call me Tim. But Sure. I'm not Tim.
T.C.:I am I a Tim? Do I seem like a Tim to you?
Jim:No.
T.C.:No. I'm a TC.
Jim:You're a TC.
T.C.:And I think I'm alright. I think I'll do okay as TC.
Jim:I think so.
T.C.:Oh, good. Thank you.
Jim:Of all the of all the TCs I know, you you you hold it down pretty well.
T.C.:For a time, I refused to believe that there were any other TCs in the world. Like, I was very stubborn, no. I'm the only one. There isn't any other out there. And then I turned 30 and I had to stop bitching like that.
T.C.:Oh.
Jim:Yeah. They they take away the, the license.
T.C.:To to whine like a child. Mhmm.
Jim:So
T.C.:actually, so the the helicopter pilot from Magnum PI
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:Was named TC. And that's what we're doing today. Magnum PI No. The no. No.
T.C.:No. No. Although, add it to the list. Listeners, if you wanna hear us do a Magnum PI episode.
Jim:Oh, gosh. Oh, and see now Now you can think about that. Because I haven't seen any of the new show.
T.C.:Right. I've I forgot there was a
Jim:new show. Yeah. There is.
T.C.:And and that's an example of what we do here on the show. In case this is your first episode, go back and check out our previous episodes. But that's what we do. We have a list of properties, movies, franchises, movies that have been made, movies we think should be made. And a studio is gonna demand us to conceive and pitch a movie, and that's, that's what we're doing today.
T.C.:So, like, for example, I threw out Magnum PI, and our gears have to start turning. Yep. I'm not doing Magnum PI. Okay. Are you ready, Jim, to find out what the studio demands today?
T.C.:Yeah. Okay. Yes. I am. Are you sure?
Jim:I'm ready.
T.C.:We got some M and M's here. Tell me. We got some y. Tell me. I will.
T.C.:Jim, it is 02/2013. It has been one year since Marvel pulled off a five picture phase one. The Avengers has been released. And not just changed cinema, but they have changed the world. Can you Yep.
T.C.:Can you agree with that? The world has been Yep. Changed Yep. By the existence of
Jim:Nothing will ever be the same.
T.C.:Because of the Avengers. Yes. That that is we've already discussed this because of the dark universe. Yep. Marvel changed everything.
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:Okay. So it's it is a year past that. It's 02/2013. Okay. We haven't gotten Guardians of the Galaxy or Winter Soldier.
T.C.:We don't know what to look forward to yet. It's also been one year since the culmination of Christopher Nolan's Bat trilogy, The Dark Knight Rises. Okay? Warner Brothers is desperate to have a competitive cinematic universe. They've released the Man of Steel directed by Zach Snyder Yep.
T.C.:Produced by Chris Nolan to varying degrees of criticism and success. It was not successful enough. Okay?
Jim:Yep.
T.C.:We need bigger. We need better. We now have less than three years to conceptualize and produce a sequel. Today, the studio demands Batman and Superman. Oh, this
T.C.:is This is
Jim:This is everything I could hope for and dread at once.
T.C.:Have a list of studio demands in addition to that, but that's our starting point. Okay. So we we know what we got. Mhmm. Okay?
T.C.:This this is more than enough conversations that we've had about what were they thinking. Batman v Superman Dawn of Justice, and you have to say the full title, is a train wreck. It is a it is a checklist of all the mistakes you can make in trying to launch a cinematic universe. We have to I'm not even erasing Man of Steel. Man of Steel exists.
T.C.:We have to use it. Okay? But beyond that, BVS, DOJ, Wonder Woman, Suicide Squad, and Justice League Aquaman don't exist. Okay. They need a long term plan here.
T.C.:They need a franchise, and we need to kick it off. We need the the fact that Man of Steel did not succeed like they wanted to. We now have they want Batman in this movie. Yeah. Batman and Superman.
Jim:Batman has to be in this movie. Yeah. Superman has to be in this movie. Any other parameters?
T.C.:I do have some other parameters here, but I I just wanna know Okay. Your gears are already turning. Right? Yeah. Okay.
Jim:Yeah. I have a I have a big dumb idea.
T.C.:You have a big let let me hear your big dumb idea, and then I'll start throwing more stipulations
Jim:at So we've we've talked at length, not necessarily on the show. We've we've hinted at it as to what we think the formula is, and how DC what they've been doing is like, oh, they did it wrong. They did it
T.C.:backwards. The the formula for the what Marvel did.
Jim:Yeah. Which is which is bunches of little ones building up to a big one. Right. They treated
T.C.:it like a TV series.
Jim:Yeah. And DC wanted to get there fast, so they wanted to do the big one right away Mhmm. And then splinter off.
T.C.:Right.
Jim:And that just that doesn't that doesn't work.
T.C.:Yeah.
Jim:So my big dumb idea is to double down.
T.C.:Double down? What what you say just jump straight to Justice League? What is your double down here? Do do?
Jim:Pretty much. Mhmm. So have a movie where so I'm right off the bat, I make I'm sort of ignoring the the the BVS part, the the Batman versus Superman part Yeah. And going straight to the dawn of justice. I don't know what what it is that challenges Earth this early because apocalypse really seems like it should be a later thing.
Jim:Mhmm. But maybe it is the thing that shows up now. Maybe I don't know enough about DC villains to really kinda
T.C.:I
Jim:could one out there.
T.C.:Go all day, but
Jim:Something comes and threatens the Earth, and so we actually get glimpses through the first, I'd I'd say first act, probably through the whole movie, actually. I think you just drop names, and and not just, like, literally reference them by someone saying them. You have heroes in the background, foreground, midground, like, almost all the time. Mhmm. Like so that way, it's it's literally an avalanche of Easter eggs.
T.C.:I mean, that that's essentially what George Miller was gonna do back in the early two thousands right before the writers' strike. They were already in production for a Justice League movie of just, we're not doing any we're just you're getting the Justice League. Here's everybody. Nice. So we're we're you're not out of the realm of what a studio would have liked previously, so continue.
Jim:So what I think I would do so some sort of invasion happens. Right? Some sort of big army attacks. Could be Apocalypse with his his bug monster things. And so we see we see the world being overrun, and we see heroes successfully fighting small battles but not winning the war.
Jim:Mhmm. That's when we go to to to Batman. And Batman has Batman is the the one who ultimately begins things. He reaches out to two or three heroes, and he's the one who starts putting together the Justice League because the heroes need to work together to fight this off.
T.C.:And that's more or less what happened in the Whedon Snyder Justice League. Batman was technically Yeah. Recruit everyone. Okay.
Jim:Yeah. Except it was five people. And I'm I'm thinking we we focus we focus on five. And, like, so so those are the ones that come together and really sort of galvanize all of the heroes. Mhmm.
Jim:But but, literally, it's it's through the personification of these five, we see an army of heroes come together a to to defend the Earth in this this first movie. Mhmm. And ideally, I I realize I'm I'm painting with really broad strokes here. Ideally, then that gives you sort of your your main five that you you can do splinter movies for. It gives you an immense cast to make other minor movies that may that could possibly move up into larger positions Mhmm.
Jim:Things. And it gives you supporting cast for those splinter movies Mhmm. As as you go. Like, you could have now now I'm blanking. You could you could have so I'm I'm I'm thinking of the big five.
Jim:Oh, you could have a flash movie
T.C.:Yeah.
Jim:Where Oliver Queen, Green Arrow
T.C.:Green Arrow. Yeah.
Jim:Shows up. Essentially, functionally sidekicks Mhmm. For Flash in in Flash's splinter movie.
T.C.:I see.
Jim:And you could do that with with other other other ones as well.
T.C.:Well, I will I could give you a villain a a villain type people that could attack the Earth in this fashion. So there's the Thanagarians, the Hawk people. They have the m metal. They have an army. There's an intergalactic battle happening between
Jim:That's how much do you know about Robotech and Macross?
T.C.:None.
Jim:Okay. So in that, the Zentradi Mhmm. Attack Earth, and Earth has this this big ship called the Macross. Mhmm. And they get all sorts of robot tech robot things, and I'm butchering it.
Jim:Either way, the whole first war is the Zentradi versus the humans, and then they overcome them with music. And then years go by and a piece is made and then the Invid invade. Yeah. And I'm I might even be getting this wrong, but I'm pretty sure that happens. So there's at that point, the Zentradi and humans have made peace to it, and a bigger, badder thing comes along.
Jim:And that work that model sort of works, you know, jamming jamming the peg into the hole in in this regard. I actually really like that idea of the hawk people attacking.
T.C.:You got people flying. You got people on the ground, hand to hand combat, lasers. Like, the the Thanagans Yeah. Would give you everything.
Jim:And Anyway and then we can turn that around so then through into our phase two of DC, then we can introduce apocalypse, and it's a bigger, better threat. And at that point, the Hawk people Mhmm. Have become allies of sorts, and they can team up.
T.C.:That could be a way to go. And now is that have you scraped the surface of your idea? Do you wanna deal with further awareness? Because the studio is interested at this point. But I'm gonna have some new stipulations about to to pick apart your idea here.
Jim:I don't have any other further I don't have further details now, so
T.C.:if you wanna Let's let's let's wanna pick you up I will. I'm gonna rain at it and tell you, like, you know what? You know what, Jim? I gotta tell you, we had some other ideas here. Okay?
T.C.:I have I have a solution to bypass the fact that they they wanted to jump right ahead to the t like, the big team up movie. Okay? And this comes actually out of a fan theory that was a really stupid fan theory based on the title of Batman v Dawn of Justice. Mhmm. And and I do think that there was a they they missed an opportunity here that would have saved them a hell of a lot of trouble, that would have gave them a ton of good credit and good faith.
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:Okay. I don't care how much money it would take. I don't care how many boats you had to drive into his front yard. You get Christian Bale back. And this isn't the sequel to Man of Steel.
T.C.:This is the fifth movie in the franchise. Man of Steel was four.
Jim:Oh, you ghost you ghost Nolan's that's why you brought it up. You ghost Nolan's trilogy as the intro to
T.C.:You take all the good faith of the Dark Knight trilogy. Sure. Particularly, Dark Knight, because I know Dark Knight Rise is a whole different can of worms. Sure. But you you give Christian Bale anything and everything he wants to come back and play Batman.
T.C.:Because here's the thing, they knew. The Warner Brothers knew, you don't sell a movie with Superman, you sell the movie with Batman. He's the first name in the title. Yeah. It's not Superman two.
T.C.:It's not Superman versus Batman. It's Batman versus Superman, Dawn
Jim:of Justice.
T.C.:They know who their bread and butter is. Their bread and butter is Batman. And if you watch BVS, they did a lot of shorthand to try to capitalize on Nolan's movies.
Jim:Oh, yeah.
T.C.:Like, they they scavenged some imagery. They they Mhmm. They retreaded some ground because they knew people would, oh, it's shorthand. People already know the Nolan stuff. So just get Christian Bale back.
T.C.:Okay? And you said to get the get the the heroes together to stop an invasion on Earth. Mhmm. Invasion already happened. It happened in the
Jim:past year. Yeah. The the the Kryptonians.
T.C.:The Kryptonians and Superman himself has already attacked this planet. Right? The the attack of the Kryptonians, the the whole notion of what happens in BVS can work. Batman sees a universal threat that's bigger than anything that's ever been faced. How do you stop this threat?
T.C.:Okay?
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:So here here's some stipulations I wanna throw at you that the the studio is demanding. We get Christian Bale back. Okay. Now that Nolan trilogy is canon. Mhmm.
T.C.:Okay? Which also gives you you're gonna have I I know how I would solve it, but you're gonna have to deal with the fact that Nightwing is out there that Yeah. That Batman is currently held by Robin, that Blake is is currently wearing the bat.
Jim:Okay. So so we, yeah, we take the end of that trilogy and and and extrapolate.
T.C.:Yes. We have to have Lois. We have to have Martha. We have to have Luther. Wonder Woman has to be in here.
T.C.:You have Alfred. Go ahead. Perry White can be in here. KG Beast and Mercy can still be part of Luke's Lex's group of people, but the studio wants Christian Bale. The studio wants Batman and Superman to fight.
T.C.:We have to introduce a broader cinematic universe, which means Wonder Woman's gotta be in here.
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:And, you know, maybe we could figure out something better than a quick time event that shows all the other clips of heroes, which I do have a suggestion for that. So here here's my pitch for how you open this movie up. And then let's see if you'll go with me on this. Open up with the battle of Metropolis once again through Bruce's perspective.
Jim:Sure.
T.C.:That's how BVS starts. Yep. But you don't do it with him there on the ground. You have him watching it on TV in Paris. Mhmm.
T.C.:He's sitting there watching live on television. Aliens exist, and they are destroying one of the major
Jim:And that's what brings Batman out.
T.C.:And that that was what will that is what so have him witness it, seeing it all happen, standing next to Anne Hathaway as Selena. Yep. The what this is and then title card and jump forward, I don't know, year later.
Jim:Okay.
T.C.:And we'll we'll follow what Clark is doing and whatnot, but I think Batman is your protagonist through this. And in his eyes, Superman's the villain that he needs to figure out and stop. Bruce Wayne is the greatest detective. He would have figured out who Clark Kent is. He's not that's so stupid.
T.C.:I hate how they fight in BVS because it's like, all Bruce has to say is like, Clark, Lex is tricking us. Like, just take a sec or or I'm sorry. All Superman had to say was, hey. I don't wanna fight you. Lex Luthor's kidnapped my mom and Yeah.
T.C.:And but instead they just fight like a bunch of frat boys and stupid. This is
Jim:because pride. How dare you hit me with a thing that doesn't hurt me.
T.C.:I'm like,
Jim:I need to punch you before I say the thing I wanted to say.
T.C.:And we can still get there. We can still get the fight get the fight to the fight. But anyway, we've seen Bruce witness the attack on Metropolis. We flash forward a little bit, and it's a year later or six months later or what have you. Bruce is still in Paris, and he is obsessed with news clippings and he's secretly doing detective work.
T.C.:And Salinas finally just says to him, leave. You don't wanna be here. You wanna be doing something. You can't just sit in this room and invest I know you're investigating. Look at this wall of shit you have.
T.C.:This this water guy that you found evidence of, this fast dude you got running around Keystone City, I know you've been investigating all these weird events around the world. You don't wanna be here anymore. Leave. And so he goes back to Gotham. Okay.
T.C.:So now you have little Easter eggs to introduce the other things that Batman has been investigating.
Jim:Okay.
T.C.:So it doesn't Lex doesn't have some computer file with all these metas in it, and maybe he does, but it's Bruce and his investigation of the bigger DC universe that has been unlocked by an alien attack that has gotten him his bat sense tingling. Sure. He goes back to Gotham and says that that Batman needs to take a bigger role. I I'm here to to be Batman again, and he has to take that mantle away from from the person he bestowed upon. So you got conflict between those two.
Jim:And it happened it's what happens in the comics all the time.
T.C.:Yeah. Dick finally gets to be Batman versus like, alright. I'm I'm retired back. Give me it back. Yeah.
T.C.:And that can embitter. What I would what I would do with with Nightwing is send him on a on a side quest that we don't even get to see. Essentially, let them have conflict, create that tension between them, and Bruce all but saying and even Alfred could be on Bruce's side, You're not equipped to handle this, Blake. Sorry. You can stay.
T.C.:I'm not kicking you out of Batcave, but I need Batman. I need all this equipment. I'm back. I'm sorry. Like, just Bruce is a dick.
Jim:Yeah.
T.C.:Alright. Dick to dick. Yeah. Yeah. So let him come back in and his whole methodology is to try to solve the mystery of Superman and and let him investigate Superman.
T.C.:When it when it figure out that, oh, his mom's name is Martha. Like, don't give this this contrived conflict that Lex is pitting them against each other.
Jim:But then how will we have
T.C.:the Frank Miller scene? Well, here's the thing. Flip it. Because in BVS, Lex has antagonized Batman to kill Superman. Yeah.
T.C.:Batman's too freaking smart to fall for that. Sure. What Lex because Lex is your big villain here. Lex is actually manipulating Superman by constantly putting him in a position to harbor the fear of the alien. Lex is running for political office.
T.C.:Fear the alien. How timely is this that we have a political figure, a rich political figure who's using the fear of aliens?
Jim:That that's not that's not 2013.
T.C.:Fine. It's a post 09/11 fear because that's what that's what, Snyder was playing with anyway.
Jim:Yeah.
T.C.:And I know I'm I'm thinking I'm I'm not thinking I I I
Jim:what are you telling me?
T.C.:It's 02/2013 and a few years Donald Trump's gonna be president? Nah. But
Jim:there That's just a dumb Simpsons joke.
T.C.:Never happened. So instead, harboring, like, feigning the flames of the fear of an alien in Superman and putting it in positions of trying to constantly do the right thing, but then putting putting it out there like, you know, that train never would have crashed if Superman wasn't even around. Little things like that to constantly make make the public question Superman. Not outright hate him like they do in BVS, but create that tension of I I I think Superman's good, I think Superman's bad. Well, look at all this bad stuff that didn't happen until Superman showed up.
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:And so Superman is constantly on edge. He's trying to do the right thing. There's some mysterious force that he starts using his reporter mind to go, someone's setting these things up. Someone is, like, out to get me. Like, let his paranoia come out.
T.C.:Because then when Batman finally reveals himself, Superman will be the reactionary one. It's you. And especially if if Bruce shows up and says, Superman, I know you're Clark Kent. Go after him. Like, Superman will react to that.
T.C.:So now Batman's like, stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. I'm and and imagine the Christian Bale, Batman, trying to stop the Henry Cavill Superman who is so paranoid and freaked out at this point that the fight is now not Batman trying to kill Superman.
T.C.:It's Superman pissed off at this supposed enemy who's been stalking him through the course of the movie. Lex has manipulated Superman into trying to attack Batman.
Jim:Okay. Alright. These are good parameters. So These are less parameters and
T.C.:more I'm just pitching my movie to you. But they have to fight. They have to fight, and then they have
Jim:to be friend. Because it because the because it has to be Batman versus Superman Dawn
T.C.:of Justice. That's what people want. They wanna see Batman and Superman fight.
Jim:They they think they
T.C.:want that. I'm the dumb studio
Jim:that You are you are correct.
T.C.:You you definitely Any true blue comic book superhero, any any right minded comic book superhero, super superhero fan knows that Batman and Superman have fought, but that's not the point. But any any 14 year old sitting in the lunchroom with his friends, like, went in a fight? Yeah. That's what the studio's hearing. That's what the studio wants to say.
Jim:So And, you know, there's there's a part of me that also still engages in those
T.C.:Oh, yeah. I agree.
Jim:Debates. Mean, that's essentially what this is.
T.C.:Right. This is exactly what this is. Who'd win in a fight? Iron Man versus Doctor Strange.
Jim:Yeah. Magic versus technology. The Doctor Strange would win. Okay. I'm I'm I'm buying the outline that that you're selling to me.
Jim:Mhmm. Right now, though, you you explained it with a whole lot of energy, which which made me think that the movie will feel quite kinetic like that. Mhmm. But I think really with what you said though, it's gonna be a pretty investigative movie. Right?
Jim:Like, it doesn't feel very superhero action packed. Well, it's Batman's the
T.C.:one on the boots on the ground investigating. Superman's the one who is gonna be doing the early action set pieces. Like, Batman can get out there and mix it up, and let's see the Arkham Asylum fight without murdering anyone. And you know what? I don't know if you saw Zack Snyder recently.
Jim:I I did I did hear it.
T.C.:Screw I know I'm dating it, but screw him to this day. That he's like whole bunch
Jim:of reactions.
T.C.:Effing get over it, Batman kills. No. You Yeah. And fine. There's probably listeners right now who think Batman should kill.
T.C.:The core of that character, he's got one rule, and that's the point of
Jim:him. But the Well You're right. Because because our heroes are not supposed to kill. Our heroes are supposed to save people. Mhmm.
Jim:That is what firemen save people. They should murder fire. Police are supposed to protect people
T.C.:But they shouldn't.
Jim:And not by killing them.
T.C.:Oh, that's a different political debate. The so, yeah, you're right. It could be a little investigative if you're following the Batman threat. And and I think Zach Snyder is not the director for this. You pay Nolan everything you possibly can to get him To
Jim:get him to do it, not not just consult?
T.C.:You know, I think even having Jonathan Nolan write the script would be would be the right way to go here. Sure. And Goyer can be involved like he was through the Dark Knight trilogy. But having a having a more competent writer, having a more competent director who understands story structure and character arcs and character development, This isn't a movie that needs nuanced acting, but it needs a plot that that means something and that is is coherent. Whereas like BVS, Dawn of Justice is a mess.
T.C.:What what is the where are the acts? Where's the act structure? What are the wants of the characters? What are the the it's just like it's we know. We know it's the best.
Jim:I'm having an idea. Oh, what's your idea?
T.C.:The studio is interesting.
Jim:Every everything everything you said.
T.C.:Mhmm.
Jim:Right? One of the I don't know if it'd it'd be a b plot or or or one of the things that's happening. So the world is becoming more and more paranoid through co being coaxed into it of of Superman and and these these strange alien invaders. Mhmm. We start getting hints or or even like full on scenes of our other four, is it?
Jim:Are are the other four heroes that will eventually show up?
T.C.:Yes. Through the studio.
Jim:Through things like the media. Lex Lex is finding these things. The media is saying, there's there's there's these strange there's islands. We're finding out about islands in the the ocean middle of the ocean that we can't we we're finding islands we can't find. I need to
T.C.:fix it. You could have some sort of, like, Alex Jones freaking out.
Jim:Like, I'm
T.C.:telling you, there's islands out there that we can't get to. Like
Jim:Yeah. Have have people talking about people living in underwater bases. Mhmm. And but in BVSDOJ Mhmm. They they're being pointed at as other Kryptonian strongholds.
T.C.:Right. The misconception because
Jim:these things because we need to blame it on this guy. Yeah.
T.C.:And Lex is harboring is Yeah. Fanning that flame.
Jim:Yeah. And it's it's not. Right? It's it's
T.C.:There's Atlanteans.
Jim:Atlanteans and can't remember the name of the yes. Thank you. I'm doing a terrible job.
T.C.:That's right. But then you could have more, like, urban myth characters like The Flash and like Green Arrow and and the the hints of a a bigger DC universe as asides on TVs. I don't need full on interviews being shown like they showed in BBS, but we have a setting of a newspaper. Why not have Perry White constantly being like, alright. Who's this?
T.C.:We got some rumor mill about a man with a green ring. We need a who can we get on that? You know, hey. This this kid that's over at, met you, Victor Stone, he's an amazing football player. I want him I want you know, what's his deal?
T.C.:Is there something in maybe he's too good. You know? So I think yeah. You're right. You could just sprinkle in that broader thing.
T.C.:Here's something the studio needs, though. We need Wonder Woman legitimately in this movie, not hinted at, Based on this sort of construct of a film I have right now where you have Batman trying to figure out Superman and Superman afraid of some mysterious force that they they're on a path to collide. How do you get Wonder Woman in here?
Jim:I think I think one of the things taking taking a note from my initial pitch Mhmm. That I think would need to be established pretty early on with just a couple establishing things. And I realized we're trying to to build a normal world being invaded by strangeness with aliens and stuff, but I think it would really serve our purposes for this movie and beyond if superheroes Mhmm. Are established as a part of this world.
T.C.:So people know about the Flash and they're fine with him?
Jim:Maybe. Okay.
T.C.:You know what?
Jim:You're There there are vigilantes. Right? There are masked vigilantes. Maybe some of them have powers. Maybe things like that.
Jim:The arrow in
T.C.:Star City and
Jim:Yeah. Not not necessarily to to the near godlike level that some of the heroes become.
T.C.:Right. And maybe that's what the catalyst for all this is that we've had vigilantes for years. You've got that guy in Keystone and Mhmm. And you got the the arrow in in Star City. But they those guys are shooting arrows and running fast.
T.C.:This guy can tear a city apart. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I like that.
T.C.:Because your original pitch of of multiple I I didn't squash that idea. Yeah. I I No. Know. I'm to I think we can get to this.
Jim:Right. Well, because because I just I essentially cut out the Batman versus Superman
T.C.:for the Justice League. Yeah. But we need Batman and Superman. But anyway, continue. Yeah.
T.C.:So I like your
Jim:really want this. So the the reason the reason I I say that is because that way, when we introduce Wonder Woman, I I I don't think it's as strange of a is is it that big of a shit? I don't I don't know where I'm I I was building towards something. And
T.C.:If you're saying that superheroes are are a gimme in this world, but vigilantes, the street level hero Yeah. Are something that people know about. Maybe they believe in them, maybe they don't. I mean, the Batman in Gotham is a real thing. You have to remember in
Jim:Nolan's universe thing.
T.C.:Yeah. If you remember Nolan's universe, Batman exists. By the end of that one, he's fighting in broad daylight. People understand that vigilantes are a real thing.
Jim:So thus and and going along with that, it's not just vigilantes beating up random crooks. It is that, but it's also there's there's villains. Supervillains. Yeah. Bane.
Jim:So so these guys these guys exist as well. Yeah. Right. And and I suppose the way our the sensationalist news would portray them is more bad than good. Like, a lot
T.C.:of the
Jim:vigilantes would get caught up in that as well.
T.C.:Yeah. So inserting Wonder Woman, it's not it's not out of the the blue that suddenly Wonder Woman exists, but maybe she's been staying undercover. Like, doesn't go out and do lift cars over her head because that's too in your face. But now that Superman exists, she
Jim:Well, if we, depending on how much how much how many of the parameters need to preserve the Wonder Woman that we did get
T.C.:I do really love the Wonder Woman we get. Yeah. So maybe thinking, you know, in this scenario
Jim:that one still has
T.C.:to exist.
Jim:That means she's been a part of the world of man now for a hundred years. Over a Mhmm. About a hundred a hundred years. Yeah. So she's going to know her way around things.
T.C.:But she did give up on mankind. That's why she's not out there in the public when the in the BVS that we got, she's been like, I gave up. I just want my sword back because someone sent a photo that I need. Like, what is what happened? Like, because that's what she was trying to get from Lex because Lex screw that.
T.C.:That doesn't exist anymore. Find a different way to insert her into this.
Jim:And and what what I'm thinking is she's also she's investigating just like Batman is.
T.C.:Okay. So, actually, what about this? Okay. Kind of going off your idea that superheroes exist. Mhmm.
T.C.:They're out there. Superman changed the game by being a god among men. Mhmm. Batman, his sole purpose out here is he's investigating the threat of Superman and trying to figure out who he is so that he can he can just talk to him. Right?
T.C.:And even going so far as Bruce figures out Lex is manipulating him and that's why he wants to talk to Superman.
Jim:Sure.
T.C.:In the midst of that, Wonder Woman is the one trying to build the team. She's the one that's like, hey. Now that a god exists, I need to round up these superheroes. So she could be the one who
Jim:She's she's known gods have existed.
T.C.:I mean But not that the public Actually
Jim:yeah. Yeah. I actually, that's actually a really good catalyst for her to want to do that. Like, if this level of power is back in the world Yeah. It needs to
T.C.:be organized. So she can be the one who sneaks up on Batman at a dinner party and says, I know who you are.
Jim:No. People would hate that.
T.C.:What? Say it.
Jim:What if what if she's the one who stops Superman from killing Batman?
T.C.:Oh, instead of Lois?
Jim:I like that I like that idea, but, oh, people well, no. I think in our fight, somehow, Batman needs to think his way. He he needs to clever his way into not dying. Into oh, yeah. Into not being If so high blasted or or pounded or chill boot breathed or heard.
T.C.:So if Wonder Woman's presence is that she's trying to like maybe she okay. Here we go. She goes to Bruce first and is like, I like I know I know your deal. I know you're you're a hero. I'm trying to recruit heroes.
T.C.:And Bannon's like, I'm doing my own thing. I'm not part of the team. Get out of here. Maybe she could even go to Superman at one point and be if Superman's saving the day and she shows up and he's like, how did you? She's like, hey.
T.C.:Like Coulson. Think Coulson is the original Iron Man.
Jim:Okay.
T.C.:Alright? But it's Wonder Woman. Yeah. The so she fails at recruiting Batman. She fails at recruiting Superman.
T.C.:She could give the the ominous if this this is gonna come to a head and it's gonna end badly, we need to work together to stop the real threats out there. So when the big final battle not the final battle, but the Batman versus Superman fight finally happens, you are right. Wouldn't be fair to Batman if Wonder Woman saves his ass. Mhmm. Quick from the peanut gallery.
T.C.:Would you want that? Would you want Wonder Woman to save Batman from Superman?
T.C.:Do I want a woman to break up a fight between two men?
T.C.:Yes. We do that already. I'm curious what the listeners are thinking
Jim:right now.
T.C.:Because I do like the idea of Batman, like, staying just just one step away from death against Superman constantly constantly, and then finally, like, oh, man. Superman's gonna blast them. And one of them swoops in and is like, alright, boys. Cut it out. There is something fun about that.
Jim:Yeah. And and and right that would happen that would happen in an episode of Justice League. Yeah. But in this not in a not in a movie.
T.C.:Okay. How about this?
Jim:If because Lex Okay. I got one. But let's go first.
T.C.:Okay. Lex has set up the plan to manipulate Superman. He's trying to use the fear of Superman to get to his position.
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:He's he's not aware that Batman he's not he's not threatened by Batman because he's smarter than Bruce Wayne. Like, he's Lex Luthor the genius, not the Jesse Eisenberg Lex. I want the animated Superman Lex Luthor. I want the badass smart guy.
Jim:I think I think Jesse Eisenberg could have been a good one if not for the affectation
T.C.:he chose. I agree. Think the the one we got at the Justice League the one we'll never see again
Jim:Yeah.
T.C.:That Lex. I'm fine with Jesse Eisenberg doing a different Lex, but it's the smart one. Yeah. Shoot. I lost my train of thought because I derailed twice in that
Jim:because Sorry.
T.C.:If if what's your idea?
Jim:So my idea is because Bruce is clever enough to have contingencies upon contingencies, it it harkens back to what Zach Snyder did, but reversed. We bring in Clark's mom.
T.C.:Oh, yes. There we go. That's that's it. Okay. I got it.
T.C.:That's where I was gonna go. Was exactly on the same page here. When Bruce has figured out Lex is doing all this to Superman to drive him crazy and tries to confront him and the fight is taking place. What Bruce is trying to get to it's not just, I'm trying to Lex Luthor, like, would you please give me because Superman's fast, he's gonna just he's so paranoid and and upset at this point, he's not paying attention. It's Bruce that is trying to say, not only has Lex manipulated you, he's got his contingency of us fighting and not he's got your mom.
T.C.:He's got your mom.
Jim:Oh, I I was actually just gonna have something cooler than it, but essentially just have Batman was gonna have Martha, like, on a smartphone. Like Like,
T.C.:Clark, stop fighting him. He's nice. Yeah. I'm I'm giving you an action set
Jim:piece.
T.C.:Yeah. Because Bruce saving Martha in Batman versus Superman is one of the best scenes in that That's true. Shitty, shitty movie. Yeah. So that's what Bruce is trying to explain everything to Superman, but Superman's just reacting.
T.C.:We can get the hot head young Superman that Snyder stupidly created. Mhmm. Let's just give him some more agency and purpose behind why he's fighting Bruce. And the final thing would be Lex has your mom and Lois. I'm trying to tell you this.
T.C.:Let me go save which one do you want me to save? I will save what you tell me which one you want me to save, and you save the other one. So then Clark has to choose between saving Lois and saving his mom. So Bruce goes and saves Martha. Superman goes to save Lois, and then he goes to confront Lex.
T.C.:And Lex says, you know what? I thought this might happen. I'm glad that I was prepared for this as well. And then you get the suit.
Jim:Oh, that terrible suit, but I love it anyway.
T.C.:Alright. We're gonna take a break here, and we'll be right back.
T.C.:Hi there. I'm David.
T.C.:And I'm Kate.
T.C.:And we're the hosts of another Zelda podcast.
T.C.:There are so many good podcasts out there, and some of them in particular concern the Legend of Zelda.
T.C.:That's right, Kate. And we are another one of them. We that is actually the name of our show, another Zelda podcast.
T.C.:And in our show in particular, we talk about some of our favorite dungeons, characters, boss battles. We have top 10 lists.
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T.C.:And Lex throws on the Kryptonian battle suit. Yep. And now you can have the final act, Superman versus a Kryptonian powered Lex Luthor suit
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:With Batman trying to freaking help him. And Wonder Woman can come in, and the three of them can fight Lex and whatever else you wanna add into this. Because we do have KGBeast as a subplot, like a muscle Sure. For, well, Bruce would have faced him against Martha. Yeah.
T.C.:But what do you think? Lex Lex suit
Jim:versus Hang on.
T.C.:You okay? Okay. I'm too excited about this. I can't hang on.
Jim:That was the KG Beast?
T.C.:Yes. That was KG
Jim:I did not know that.
T.C.:I don't think anyone did. Did you know Jimmy Olsen was in the movie till the credits rolled?
Jim:No. No. I I mean, I knew one once that happened, but to this until today, I did not know that that was KG Beast. What a waste. What a awful waste.
T.C.:Blew up his, his fiery jetpack Uh-huh. His flamethrower. Ugh. So you have your big final blowout action sequence, Lex Luthor in the battle suit
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:Versus Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. Because now Wonder Woman can show up and, like, she can come in. Right? Like, Clark is getting his ass kicked by a Kryptonian powered suit where he's just getting beat down, beat down, beat down, And Lexa's gonna do an Iron Man chest blast, and Wonder Woman just jumps in with her shield and it's like, I've decided to help fight. And now you got her in the mix.
T.C.:People are like, yeah. And now Batman isn't fighting the goddamn suit. He's saving civilians. Sure. And guess who comes back to help him save civilians?
T.C.:Nightwing. Okay. So now Blake has come back. He's there to help. He's not wearing the bat suit.
T.C.:He's got some variation on it.
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:So now Bruce and Blake are saving civilians while Superman and Wonder Woman are fighting a Kryptonian suited Lex Luthor. And now one might think this sounds expensive. They made a big giant CG blob of Doomsday. This budget is as bloated as it needs to be. They can do all of this.
Jim:Why did they make him look like that? They could have at least made him look like the Doomsday from the comics. No.
T.C.:Cave Troll. We had the Cave Troll we're Warner Brothers. We had the Cave Troll template from Lord of the Rings. Just alter it. Yeah.
Jim:Okay. I I I like most of that. I think we need to see Batman do more than save people. I think he does need to be in the mix, but he's he's not throwing punches against a robot. Right.
Jim:He's doing way more clever stuff.
T.C.:So, like, he's Yeah.
Jim:He's, you know Bombs in the ass. Sabotaging exhaust ports Mhmm. And, yeah, disabling cameras and Okay.
T.C.:So, yeah, maybe he hit first. He could be like, alright. Fine. I'll take care of the civilians. That's that's I will save people.
T.C.:And if Blake shows up, he's like, I got it. Go help those two. Then Bruce is like, cool. I'm in the fight.
Jim:And I Sure. It's Yeah.
T.C.:And I and I understand, like, people people at this point, even throughout the course of this might be thinking there's no way Christian Bale's Batman could stand next to Henry Cavill's Superman. And I think the Man of Steel we got, that first one, yeah, that's the power level of Superman. We can deal with it. I think, the the gadgetry of and the cartoonishness of Nolan's Batman would need to be escalated. We would need to get a little more gimmicky in the toys.
T.C.:But I don't think it would be as giant of a leap as it as people might think it would
Jim:need to be. Yeah. I don't I don't really know how many more toys you would need.
T.C.:Like the grappling gun. Nolan was against the grappling gun because he's like,
Jim:he wanted find And they and Snyder put that in Yeah. BVS DOJ.
T.C.:And I'm saying let Christian Bale have the grappling gun.
Jim:Yeah. Yeah. For for this for this fight, I think that would be net necessary.
T.C.:I I think Lois can still be involved in this in terms of reporting on it. She doesn't need to be on the battlefield.
Jim:No. An extra detail I would like in there is be since this is a world of heroes
T.C.:Mhmm.
Jim:And since Wonder Woman has been trying to recruit Batman and Superman, she's also been recruiting others who aren't as stubborn. So in this final scene, she shows up to help fight Lex. Meanwhile, Nightwing's not the only other hero saving people.
T.C.:So we
Jim:see other Yeah. We don't even need to see those named people. We can see
T.C.:the Blue Beetle. Yep. There's one.
Jim:Yeah. I actually I think for
T.C.:the sake of foreshadowing, having references to the Keystone and the Keystone City, the Sure. And the Star, like, to reference those offhandedly throughout
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:And then having them, you're saying actually have Flash and Aquaman and
Jim:the game? No. It it doesn't have to be the big ones. Right? If if we're wanting to save that for later, just have, yeah, have have a number of of smaller Than people who Wonder Woman has approached and like, yeah.
Jim:I wanna be on
T.C.:a Than Flash and and and and one other, Blue Beetle, if you will. Sure. But having the football player from Met You show up and save the day in a in a brief moment, the hint of Cyborg to come.
Jim:Oh, sure.
T.C.:If he's not he's not Cyborg, just some kid on the street who's like who saves the day and is like Mhmm. Thanks, man. And if you're paying attention, like, oh, that was that's the the football player guy. And a and a true fan would go, that's gonna be Cyborg. How exciting is that?
T.C.:That's way better than a QuickTime video. I'm glad they didn't do that. Can you imagine if they had done that?
Jim:It would have been like putting a commercial in the middle of the movie.
T.C.:I mean, I would okay. Just for the fun of it, would you have Selena show up in the final battle? I don't think she's as capable as anybody else. She's a thief. So maybe, maybe not.
T.C.:I don't know.
Jim:I mean, we paid to have her show up in the beginning. We might as well have her helping rescue people. Then
T.C.:then there you go.
Jim:But that that's kinda what I mean. It's it's sort of rescuing people in this final scene is it's happening in but it's happening in the background, and that's where we can where we can drop a bunch of Easter eggs.
T.C.:Yeah. So essentially, the battle in New York from the Avengers with what what Warner Brothers wanted, what the studio wanted with, like, hints
Jim:of his bigger world. I'd I'm I feel terrible that I've been struggling to think of other heroes. Red Tornado. Right? He hasn't been mentioned in the movie at all.
Jim:Just put him in the
T.C.:background Yeah. Moving someone out of the way. Vixen. Right? Like, some some of the lower tier characters.
T.C.:Yeah. I don't know if I want all of that. I see where you're going with it. I do. I know you do.
T.C.:I I think hinting at a couple isn't a bad idea.
Jim:So okay. Here's my problem with only a couple. Mhmm. It is gonna tell your audience these one or two Easter eggs are something to look forward. These specific ones are things you will you you should look forward to seeing again that you're going to clamor for.
Jim:If you hit them with 10 recognizable background people, they don't necessarily say anything. They don't even necessarily mug for the camera. Yeah. It's it's enough to make to to to make people say, oh, that's the world we live in. It's enough to make people who are familiar with the source material go, oh, those are these people.
Jim:Mhmm. And it it's it it it builds that world. It creates the potential without promising anything.
T.C.:Then I'm gonna I'm gonna give you half this. I I think throughout the course of the movie, using the daily planet as a focal point, using those those throwaway background moments, Which kinda draws from, The Dark Knight Returns where you get a lot of those TV interview moments and whatnot. I'm gonna let you put in 12 to 15 of those throughout the course of the movie. Little background hints here and there, billboard here, newspaper here, little things throughout kids on their cell phone. None of those characters get to be in the final fight.
T.C.:I we it's the that would be so bloated. That would be such a a mess of character.
Jim:You are really imagining focus on them way more than I am.
T.C.:No. I don't even wanna see them swing through the background. I don't wanna see I don't want some glimpse of them. This movie needs to strict needs to be more focused because the problem with all these franchise expanders is they do try to cram too much in that aren't Easter eggs. And I don't so I think in the final battle, if it's Lex's suit versus Superman and Wonder Woman with Batman running the the perimeter and and having, Dick or Nightwing on the ground saving people, Victor showing up as just a kid doing the right thing, and maybe maybe one little other character.
T.C.:I it's too many characters to play with. I'm I'm I'm letting you have the Easter eggs, but they don't get to be in the final battle. I'm sorry.
Jim:I don't think that's how you build a backwards cinematic universe. Well, I I guess we'll just
T.C.:have to agree to disagree that I'm right. I see what I can see it. Right? And I think tossing all those characters into the fight and having them swing through the background
Jim:not see, I I think that they're not in the fight.
T.C.:Well, how is this fight threatening enough with just one battle suited Kryptonian Lex Mhmm. That would require 10 characters to show up?
Jim:Well, it's it would it would have so in Banner universe superhero Dawn of Justice, they mitigated the damage by putting it on a deserted island.
T.C.:You guys don't like us beating up Metropolis. We'll put it on
T.C.:an abandoned island.
Jim:And I think that you you wouldn't do that. You would put it in a city.
T.C.:Put it in the city.
Jim:Yeah. Put it back
T.C.:in Metropolis. Right.
Jim:Yeah. And and and that's why so so there's your threat. There's your imminent threat to people. And the thing is, Lex Luthor's suit, it's not just two two or three or four big guys fighting each other. They're knocking down buildings.
Jim:It's a disaster.
T.C.:I get it.
Jim:Not necessarily as bad as in Man of Steel, but it's still a huge disaster.
T.C.:I get it. The whole movie is building off of Lex's ideas. Yes. It is huge disaster. The movie is Lex trying to harbor this fear against the alien.
T.C.:Right? Sure. Wonder Woman shows up to recruiting, she's saying, hey, if this threat exists, if we have bigger threats coming, we need to have this, and Batman's, like, too focused on Superman.
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:Superman's too focused on his paranoia. In the battle, Lex versus these two gods, Metropolis is getting it again. It can lampshade it. Like, we just rebuilt this city, and now this is happening again. You can have all these Easter egg characters because remember I had said, like, oh, Victor, who we referenced earlier
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:Shows up and saves some kid. Sure. So the whole idea that that Superman's existence is creating fear in people in this moment now with Batman there, with Wonder Woman there, it's actually inspiring people and doing the exact opposite of what Lex thought was happening with Superman. Because and this goes as a throwback to what Joker tried to do to prove the kind of people Gotham is.
Jim:Yeah.
T.C.:Now we're proving what the bigger like, what Metropolis is. So you can't have Victor come in and save the day, and people go, oh my god. That's gonna be Cyborg. You can have a construction worker, John Henry Irons Sure. Pick up a sledgehammer and start saving the day.
T.C.:And maybe Lex needs some minions. Maybe we need some Chitauri level of of goons.
Jim:Okay. Okay. You're you're you're finally you're on board with my idea. I won't I won't argue.
T.C.:So instead of having, like, all these having characters come in to save the day, maybe we could have one or two like, a a gangbuster. That's a Superman superhero that that was inspired Bibbo Babowski is another super like, a character inspired by Superman to do the right thing. Guardian is another character who is in he's the Captain America of the DC universe who operates in the shadows of of of Metropolis.
Jim:I can't remember any of their names. The big yellow demon.
T.C.:Mongol is from oh, Etrig Etrigun. Yeah. Yeah. In the second battle of Metropolis where it's getting torn up again and Lex is, I don't know, maybe so mad. He's like, if I can't have this city, no one can.
T.C.:You can have all these characters showing up to save the day in cameo moments Mhmm. And not be clad in their superhero costumes. Alright. I'm trying to find a heavy medium here because my worry is that it becomes too bloated if it's if it's too much of an Easter egg hunt. It alienates the the layman.
T.C.:A normal person coming in is going to be alienated by too many Easter eggs. They need to know who these characters are. That's why it needs to be Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, and then you sprinkle in little things that don't feel like, get it? I don't get it. The guy next to me will explain it.
T.C.:Like, you have to think like that. You're thinking. You're scratching your teeth.
Jim:So I think so the the reason what I'm thinking the the reason why I think it that it wouldn't be confusing, and and I I could be wrong. Maybe it's a different mentality for for a sci fi movie, but you don't you don't need to explain every alien in Star Wars.
T.C.:That's a different that's a different world, though. People come in expecting exactly that. Mhmm. But in something Well,
Jim:that's that's that's a part of why I was saying you establish it early on that they're a they're a known element.
T.C.:Well, I suppose if you look at what the Avengers did, they were able to introduce a new Bruce Banner and Hawkeye and and no. That's it. It was just those two were introduced in because Black Widow was introduced in Iron Man two. So it's really hard to reverse engineer what Avengers did. So I don't think Well, those are those are people that that get that get actual get actual screen time.
T.C.:So I'm I maybe this is an element we can't elaborate on because it feels like we just can't agree specifically on this point. So let's just jump to the end here.
Jim:Okay.
T.C.:I think Lex is defeated. Mhmm. I think he is unmasked to prove, like, this is who your villain is. This is who was tearing up Metropolis, Lex Luther, ladies and gentlemen, so that he can be sent off to prison for his crimes. And if and the final moments of the moments of the movie before we start closing up with a with a tag of sorts is Superman needs to stand before the American people live on television with Lois Lane pointing the microphone at him, more or less saying, I'm here to help.
T.C.:I will never let something make a vow to you as a human race. I will never let a threat like this happen again. The Kryptonians, people like Lex, I will not and he can say, I won't let this happen. This is what I'm here to do. I'm here to fight for you.
T.C.:I'm gonna do this. And Wonder Woman and Batman stepping up next to him and saying, no. We promise that. So that's it Superman will more or less not apologize, but say, like, what he this is what I'm here for. Give me that Christopher Reeve moment of I'm here to fight for truth
Jim:and justice. Yeah. None none of this wavering, none of this, saving mankind is a burden.
T.C.:Yeah. I will prove to you, for those of you who doubt me, that I'm here for good. I will prove to you. I will spend every day of my life proving to you that I am worthy of being your hero. I am Superman.
T.C.:Like, give me I want that moment. And he has his other heroes around him, whether it's just Wonder Woman and Batman Batman bleeding and limping, or if you do manage to convince me to get other heroes in it, that there that final tableau is Superman standing center with the with the world watching him surrounded by these other heroes saying we're here to help, and we'll stop whatever threat is coming.
Jim:That feels more like a dawn of justice to me.
T.C.:The the Batman v Superman dawn of justice moment? What do mean?
Jim:Just just I feel like you described a Batman versus Superman movie without all of the other heroes. It's not the it's it's just a Batman versus Superman movie. Mhmm. It's not the dawn of justice.
T.C.:Well, if the if they just tore up Metropolis a second time, Superman's gonna have to say I'm sorry. No. No. No.
Jim:I I'm saying I I like your scene. I just I think you need the backdrop of of many heroes.
T.C.:Okay. And I'm saying that that's okay. Right. I I yes. I think that even if it's him standing there saying it with just Wonder Woman and Batman behind him, if that's being broadcast around the world, then you have your moment of, like, Green Arrow pulling his gloves on or Huntress pulling her mask on her face and being inspired in the moment to rise up.
T.C.:Okay. And then you have then you have maybe the green ring going on to, like, what were all those characters watching watching that broadcast across the Internet? Like, hint at it that way instead of having them literally standing right there. Because we need a hint of greater things to come, and we can't I don't wanna specifically say you're getting an Aquaman movie, a Cyborg movie, and a Flash movie. Like, just I I agree with you.
T.C.:Hint at so many that people don't know what's coming.
Jim:Yeah. I we're we're on the same page. I I think we're not agreeing on how to do that. Okay.
T.C.:I want
Jim:to I think you do it all. It you you put them all in the same frame.
T.C.:Mhmm.
Jim:I think if you do your montage, it'll it that that instead says in the these these are the individuals that will happen.
T.C.:My fear is too many characters and that we as nerds will get excited to see the whole Justice League standing there. My fear is and my studio fear is that people don't care about Aquaman. People wanna see Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman.
Jim:And they do. Those are the three right up front.
T.C.:And then that that blonde orange shirted fishtucker. So we maybe we can't exactly agree how that moment but I think the sentiment should stay. I think that the movie needs to end with Superman saying to the world, I'm here to help, and I'm gonna prove it to you whatever it takes.
Jim:Mhmm. We've So we've so Batman or I'm sorry. Superman doesn't need to sacrifice himself No. Defeating the villain.
T.C.:Don't kill Superman. Don't kill Superman, period. We don't need that. You know, if they wanna kill Superman sorry. If the studio's like, we wanna kill Superman.
T.C.:I'm like, cool. That's your Infinity War. You wait until you've done
Jim:Oh, yeah.
T.C.:10 movies. You wait till you've done 15 movies. People need to freaking care about this character before you kill him.
Jim:They need to have seen him be invincible.
T.C.:Yeah. They need to see him be Superman. Like, it's when when that moment happened in BVS, I could I just was like, really? You guys are doing are you kidding me? Who cares?
T.C.:It was like killing Kirk in the second Star Trek movie. He's had all of two hours of screen time.
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:Dude, who cares? Yeah. That's not how this works. Spock cares. He really did because they shared I'm so mad.
T.C.:So don't kill Superman. You have him be the hero. It the be the light to guide them.
Jim:Yeah. He's he's the he's the vanguard.
T.C.:Yeah. And he's not there yet, and he he and he will be. I think there's there's all so much more nitty gritty to happen here, but I wanna jump to a post credits stinger.
Jim:Wow. Okay.
T.C.:I just wanna now that I've we've laid out so much and we can I can go back to some of the the studio demands here to see if we missed anything? I think here's your stinger. It's Nightwing. Mhmm. And this is what kinda where I I don't wanna hint at too many other characters.
T.C.:Okay. It's night night Bruce and Nightwing had their final scene where, Bruce can kinda, hey. I'm sorry. I just came back and took my mantle back.
Jim:Sure.
T.C.:And there's no forgiveness. Blake is like, I I devoted my life to this. You took it from me. Give that dick versus Bruce animosity.
Jim:Okay.
T.C.:Right? They need to not be friends at the end of this. This there's Bruce fails on that regard. The world he's gonna save the world. He's gonna be the hero he's always meant to be, but he's terrible relationships.
T.C.:Sure. Even going so far as Alfred saying, like, let him go. He's gone. Like, brute. Okay.
T.C.:And and Nightwing could even be in the in the capacity of, like, how can a hero like us exist when people are tearing down bill buildings? He could be the complete skeptic. He could be the one that doesn't trust that there's a place for a Batman level hero when Superman and Wonder Woman exist. Right? This is I'm just giving him a chip on his shoulder that he's he just wants to save the city.
T.C.:He just wants to protect Gotham, which is more or less the Batman attitude that works best in the comics. Mhmm. Batman and the Justice League is a different Batman than Batman and Gotham.
Jim:That's true.
T.C.:So I'm giving that attitude to Blake. He said he could just be like, I don't care about the world. I care about my city and the people in it, and you've taken that away from me. I I gave my life to become Batman, and you've taken Batman back, so I'm mad at you. So Stinger is your the Avengers moment, the Nick Fury showing up, and it's Nightwing meeting Wally West and hinting at the Teen Titans or the Titans, I should say.
T.C.:Instead of hinting at, we're gonna get the Justice League.
Jim:Yeah. My my whole idea spoils your stinger.
T.C.:And that's fine. We can discuss this. But it's it's the moment of maybe Wally West doing something fast, and then you think you're the one with superpowers. Like hey. There's a place for you in this world too because Nightwing and the Titans, at their best, don't deal with the world threats.
T.C.:They deal with, like, the middle ground threats. So hinting at Dick or, sorry, Blake creating the titans.
Jim:So you're wanting to forego the justice league?
T.C.:No. You don't We know we're gonna get the justice league. There's no surprise that we're gonna get the justice League. I think the surprise would be creating the titans because then you could build up to a civil war level movie where it's the Justice League versus the Teen Titans or the titans. So that's my that's my stinger.
Jim:Is that is that is that really a story that happens in DC?
T.C.:They released an animated movie of it just Really? Years ago. Yeah.
Jim:Okay. So
T.C.:my my stinger is really for the fans because we're gonna get Justice League. There's no damn way about it. We even got, like, a tableau of it where it's like, 101, Baron, server house standing here. We're gonna get the Justice League. They even fought together.
T.C.:Like, it's a far foregone conclusion that we're gonna get the Justice League. So hinting at the titans, I think, is more exciting. Or you hint at, what Justice League tried to do, and the Legion of Doom is your stinger. Silence. Okay.
T.C.:Yeah. Alright. So there's my solution for fixing Batman versus Superman. You get Christian Bale back, Henry Cavill's Man of Steel exists, Wonder Woman is going the movie we got is going to exist, still creating a movie that allows those three to kick ass together side by side by side versus Lex, not Doomsday, a Kryptonian powered suit, redeeming Superman as a hero in the eyes of the world and inspiring a new generation of heroes to come out of the shadows. That's the back of the box on the DVD.
T.C.:What's a DVD? It's a Blu ray.
Jim:Yeah. I'd watch that.
T.C.:I feel like I've kiboshed more of your ideas than I allowed to.
Jim:That's okay.
T.C.:Than I should be allowed to.
Jim:I I think the studio had a pretty good idea of what they were looking for. And that and that's okay.
T.C.:So basically, this episode is me just convincing you to make my Justice League my Batman versus Superman, and you just had to say yes or no the whole time.
Jim:Yeah. Basically.
T.C.:Okay.
Jim:No. And and and that's that's okay because yeah. The Batman versus Superman part, I feel, is really unimportant. Why do they need to fight? Why do we need to see them fight?
Jim:Because they're such great heroes. Yeah. So they why are they fighting? They should be fighting bad guys. They are smart enough to recognize that they're not bad guys.
T.C.:Well, here. I'm gonna Yeah.
Jim:You you you pitched up a a a pretty good way to to have them misunderstand and fight each other. So so that works.
T.C.:I'm gonna do this. I I now that I've babbled at you for an hour and get basically forced my idea down your throat, I want you to to pick apart what I gave you, and now you can if you wanna go back to the Thangarians attacking Earth, pick pick this apart and, like, let's let's let me let let me let you pitch me a movie. No. I don't have to for another hour. I'm just curious.
T.C.:Well, you
Jim:I'd I'd I pitched mine really broad strokes in the beginning, and then you gave more parameters
T.C.:Mhmm.
Jim:And then met your parameters. I'm I'm really excited about sorry. Yeah. I'm thinking about great. I know.
Jim:I know you have.
T.C.:About it
Jim:for years. I know. You've been Why did they do it?
T.C.:Zach Snyder's such a terrible director. Why is
Jim:this happening? Okay. Okay. So so I wanna flip this around. Let let me flip this on around a
T.C.:little bit. Give me some water. Yep.
Jim:It's okay. It'll be okay.
T.C.:Okay now.
Jim:Are you
T.C.:I'm okay. Yeah? I'm okay. Okay. Okay.
T.C.:I'm gay. I'm gay. What?
Jim:Go ahead. Okay. So I'm gonna I'm gonna turn this around a little based on the pitch you gave me. I so I'm imagining your movie, and those story beats do feel better than the story beats that we kinda got with with original. Me again.
Jim:However, I'm still I'm honestly, I'm still seeing your movie shot, and it looks a whole like, it's actually Yeah. There's not much reason that like, it's not gonna look a lot different in Stylistically Yeah.
T.C.:Like, like,
Jim:just dialogue will just make more sense. Yeah. It's That's all I can ask for. And we and we won't dislike the characters because of their choices.
T.C.:Good.
Jim:But there there's still the the what what would you do about tone? Would you keep that tone?
T.C.:I I lean into the Nolan tone. Right? Because what what we got with Zach Snyder's tone is a is a bastardization of Nolan's tone. Sure. Dark and gritty.
T.C.:No jokes. No. There's plenty of jokes in levity in the Dark Knight trilogy. Like, you can still have a fun time while being serious.
Jim:Sure.
T.C.:Okay. And, honestly, you know who's gonna who's gonna make that happen? Your Lex Luthor is gonna be where the the levity comes in this. Because if he is and it was funny too because, the episode after this, I talk about a human villain against, more or less an unstoppable force. We recorded episodes out of order.
T.C.:Yeah. Oh. Oh. Oh. I did not realize it.
T.C.:Yeah. If you think, like, if Lex is the is the is the badass Lex he should be, he's the one that's gonna be able to crack the crack wise and create the the humor at the level that Nolan gave us through the original his three original movies. Okay. So I I would hope that through the more interesting and understandable dialogue that makes more sense, you're allowed to have a little bit more of a tongue in cheek attitude about certain things. Lois should be way funnier.
T.C.:Lois is better as a Lois as a character is so much better than, hey. Let's quit swinging our dicks around. Where do I tinkle? Lois Lane should never say where do I tinkle. Are you kidding me?
T.C.:I was so furious in Man of Steel when that moment happened. I'm like, the let's quit swinging our dicks around Lois. That's okay. That's a line that tough Lois Lane should say. Sure.
T.C.:Where do I tinkle is not something Lois Lane should say.
Jim:But the juxtaposition, DC.
T.C.:Snyder. Deuer. Okay.
Jim:You you get that hairball out?
T.C.:Yeah. Sorry. Okay. So you're talking about the tone and the stylist, and that's what you're you're worried about, the tone and the style.
Jim:Yeah. So well, so I I feel you you sort of answered it. So it's still gonna be somewhat muted and and not grim. Mhmm. And and, like, what, I guess, what am I trying to ask?
Jim:Maybe I should just just pitch an idea. Do it. Do you think it'd be possible to yeah. Actually, I think Wonder Woman showed that it could be done, and this would kind of be co opting from there and undermining it when it's shown in there, so maybe it's not. Anyway, what if the tone is different per character?
Jim:So for Batman, we
T.C.:have I see.
Jim:The the the the Nolan esque mood and and everything has more muted colors and is is the gray tones. And then for Superman, now it might not it it might not jive with Man of Steel because Man of Steel set the the the color palette and everything for that there, which was similar. Mhmm. Oh, I got it. But but, essentially, I'm thinking of kind of matching matching the scenes to the characters.
Jim:Right? So Batman is the grays and blacks and dark colors. Challenge.
T.C.:You're creating a
Jim:cinematography Superman is the the the the red and the blue Mhmm. And the just the the the bright sky and stuff like that. You know, just wonder woman's Gold. More more of the gold. Okay.
T.C.:Yeah. And to mesh those together, I want you to did you watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer?
Jim:Some. Okay.
T.C.:There's an episode called Dawn. It's a season finale. I can't remember which one it is. I did not see that. Through the course of the of the episode, Buffy is attempting to save Dawn's life the whole time.
T.C.:Her sister Dawn. And so, for those of you who I'm gonna spoil Buffy the Vampire Slayer here, so I apologize if this is, like, ruins anyone's life. But, Buffy knows Dawn has to is gonna die. So she spends the whole episode, the season finale, trying to stop her death from happening. And the whole episode is done with this blue filter.
T.C.:Very matrix esque, very blue through the whole thing. And the whole episode leads up to the final fight just before sunrise.
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:When Buffy realizes the only way to save Dawn is to sacrifice herself, the sun rises and the color shifts to Sure. The color of a sunrise. So by having Batman essentially be blues and grays and Superman to be, red and blue as well, like, knight like a navy, and Wonder Woman to be this hopeful yellowish and orange. Right? When they all come together against Lex who's in green and purple, that's where the the color like, the whole movie visually comes to life Yeah.
T.C.:When the three
Jim:That's where we get the Skittles.
T.C.:Yeah. That when the when yeah. I think you're onto something there. That's a really good solution for the tone. Like, how do you fix the tone that exists in BVS by mashing the tone of the Dark Knight trilogy, Man of Steel, and what Wonder Woman would be?
Jim:Yeah.
T.C.:That's a great idea. And that's a great cinematographer, like a visual challenge.
Jim:And I I ideally, I think that sets it apart from from what we did get.
T.C.:And it sets it apart from the Marvel Universe. Sure. Because Marvel Universe have a pretty consistent look throughout unless the exception would be the Guardians of the Galaxy movies Space. Thor three, like the cosmic stuff. But we're in 02/2013 yet.
T.C.:We haven't even seen Guardians of the Galaxy. Mhmm. So that solution's really smart. Visually, that would set it way apart from what the Avengers did. I think we've already tonally by kind of rooting it in a real world fears, the the fears of the other that BVS was attempting to do.
T.C.:But Snyder's a Iranian. Like, he's Yeah. He's an he's a nihilist. He's a pessimist. I think Nolan presented a post nine eleven, a a superhero universe mashed with Man of Steel's fear the other that could totally be extrapolated tonally, and visually in this Batman and Superman.
T.C.:I'm giving you the credit for that. That's really good. I'm just I'm I'm liking what you've pitched here.
Jim:Thank you. You're you you are you are explaining well. Yeah. And then the only other thing is we just don't edit it like like they did.
T.C.:Well, I think just by the simple fact that it's makes sense as a story
Jim:Yeah.
T.C.:That it couldn't it will be better just just from page to screen, it'll already be better. Yeah. The the now here's the thing. I mean, we can we can kinda start wrapping this up unless you have some additional thoughts here.
Jim:No. I don't I don't think I I think we I I I think what's there is is is satisfactory to me. I I think based on what we said, I'd I'd this isn't an a this isn't an a plus Mhmm. For me. There there there's still questions.
Jim:Right. There's still
T.C.:Disagreements. The the studios are Honestly,
Jim:I'm I'm pretty I'm pretty close to to being on board. I I I think I think I would get most of what I'm looking for.
T.C.:Mhmm. I'll let you direct it.
Jim:Oh, then I'm definitely getting what I have.
T.C.:Yeah. I knew that would convince you.
Jim:So so, yeah, I I think I think this is a solid this is a solid effort. It's a it's definitely a a good foundation to build on. It may not be the explosive and and may maybe, actually, maybe that's the problem because this is meant to compete with the Avenger. Juggernaut that had just come out. So I I think I think it gets closer at the very least least than what our reality has.
T.C.:Yeah. Than what we actually got. And and here's what I wanna wrap up with here. It is more important to me than it probably should be, but I think it's important to pop culture that Superman and Batman and Wonder Woman are represented the best they possibly can be represented as. And I I think what Snyder did with his movies with BVS and Man of Steel is he he harmed the image of these mythological characters.
T.C.:Superman and Batman have existed in every form you can possibly they've they've been around for eighty years. Mhmm. So we've had murderous Batmans, and we've had way too cartoony and goofy Supermans.
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:But in the like, the reason Spider Man worked the when it came out is because it came out just after 09/11, and it was the hero the world needed, an underdog who can who can be a hero. Right? Like, the the Raimi Spider Man
Jim:came He's he's of the people and and for the people. Yeah.
T.C.:It was and it was a He's
Jim:a normal he's a normal guy Yeah. Who's doing what he what what what needs to
T.C.:be done not for any reward. He is a great hero that we needed that when he came out. And in 02/2013, in the era that existed then and still exists now, now that we've gotten Batman versus Superman and we've moved on, they're they are trying to fix the mistakes they've made with these movies, is that Superman is supposed to be this beacon of hope. They literally said it in Man of Steel that the s on his chest stands for hope.
Jim:It means hope.
T.C.:What in Man of Steel was hopeful? Nothing. And that's Superman needs to represent that hope. He needs to be the beacon, the light to show us the way. The what he's the best version of Superman is he's a he is a savior figure.
T.C.:Funny. Another Christ figure conversation.
Jim:Yep.
T.C.:And to create it's be p o Superman's boring. He can do anything. I wanna see him punch stuff. Right? You can get that.
T.C.:Like,
Jim:I I wanna highlight for a second that statement. Superman's boring. He can defeat anything. I want to see him punch stuff.
T.C.:That's the attitude, though.
Jim:Tell me that. You're you're not wrong. You're not wrong. But the thing is, the man who can defeat anything, the thing you wanna see him do is punch a thing?
T.C.:Yeah. I wanna see him fight a guy.
Jim:That's yeah. That's what he does. And and that's what you're saying you're bored with.
T.C.:No. He could do it. He's so Superman's boring. Like, I I assure you during the Red Scare, if you said Superman was boring, someone would call you a communist and kick you out of the country. There used to be an era where Superman was was America, and I'm not trying to be, like, flag waving Michael Bay here.
T.C.:I'm trying to just say, like, Superman should represent He is the greatest hero. He should be presented as the greatest hero. And if he's boring, that's the fault of the writer. That's the fault of the director. That's the fault of the actor.
T.C.:Superman can and has been interesting. Yeah. The best Superman we have right now is Supergirl on That show represents her as the optimistic beacon of hope she should be even in the dark times that that show goes through. Sure. Captain America, Chris Evans, he is our Superman.
T.C.:Chris I mean, not saying that literally Superman, but there's no finer hero that represents the hero he is Oh, yeah. Than Chris Evans as Captain America. Yep. Gal Gadot is Wonder Woman. She is as well cast
Jim:as Wonder Woman. As Chris Reeve was.
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah. And people can hate on the Christian Bale Batman, but I feel like given the chance to be standing in a Justice League scenario, Christian Bale would further solidify himself as as an even all the more iconic Batman. You can complain about the voice all you want. Mhmm.
T.C.:But no one embodied Bruce Wayne better than what Nolan did with Christian Bale's Batman. In my opinion Sure. That's an argument for another day. Do we'll do an episode on Dark Knight Rises. Okay?
Jim:Oh, okay. I I didn't have much problem with that movie. I I'll remake
T.C.:it, though. You can tweet at Jim. So so it's to me, it's important that Superman and Batman and Wonder Woman are presented way better than they got.
Jim:Oh, of course. Yeah. Absolutely. So They're like you said, they're 80 years old. They're they're they're more than just characters that some comic company has to to make money on.
Jim:I I no. Actually, at the most realistically cynical, that is all they are.
T.C.:Literally, exist for. Yeah.
Jim:But they they could be and and I think should be more than that. They're they're icons of of American culture
T.C.:And they
Jim:should go back multiple generations at this point. There's Mhmm. There there there's a there's a history to them, a canon to them where and, yes, people have done many different things. But when you represent them on on the on the big screen, they only get so many representations on the big screen. Mhmm.
Jim:And so you can't do all the shades. No. And and the shades you shouldn't do are the ones that are polar opposite of of of that that iconic
T.C.:image. Something that I a % agree that that iconic image is is crucial to maintain. Something that event the Marvel Cinematic Universe has done and even had done up to the point of Avengers is the archetypal archetypal nature of Iron Man, Cap, Thor. Like, they were archetypes of a of a hero that then got to team up together to do the right thing. Yeah.
T.C.:In BVS, DOJ, the one we got, there is no difference between Batman and Superman. They don't Yeah.
Jim:One's got powers, one's got gadgets.
T.C.:They don't serve any archetypal purpose. They don't live up to the mythology of the characters other than at the very base level. Superman shoot lasers, strong fly. Batman smart gadget throw. Like that's that is the that is what we got.
T.C.:Yeah. But there's so much complexity to these characters that could be explored through the archetypes of what they represent. To be to for Batman to be the brain, to be the investigator, to to try to solve through logic. Mhmm. For Superman to be powerful and especially the Man of Steel Superman that would exist in this in this scenario.
T.C.:To be afraid of what he is and what he is to the people and trying to fight against it. And for Lex to hone in on that fear and that paranoia and enhance that in Superman, you're creating very distinct archetypal archetypal heroes that have something to overcome and represent something in their story. Sure. They're on they're on a quest. Batman is especially Nolan's Batman went through this this constant arc and through the arc of this whole story of what does Batman represent.
T.C.:So what does Batman represent in the bigger picture, the DC universe? Mhmm. Superman doesn't represent anything but fear because the man is steel. He's not hope. So we need to turn him into a character that literally finds hope in himself so that he can be hope for the world.
T.C.:Batman doesn't necessarily need to change. Superman's the one that needs to change, which from a writing perspective, just strictly thinking as a screenwriter, what an amazing challenge to make Batman your protagonist on the journey, but he doesn't change, and Superman, your antagonist to the hero that is on the arc. Like, I think there's a lot of there's there's so much to explore within those characters even in a two and a half hour movie.
Jim:Sure. Well, yeah. Right. Well, yeah. Because, you just said it.
Jim:I don't know what you just said.
T.C.:Well, okay. So I guess I'll I'll leave it at that. Any final thoughts on on Batman and Superman? I don't know if we if we
Jim:No. Just lots of silence.
T.C.:Yeah. That's that's what I'm hearing. It's Which makes for great podcast. Oh, yeah. I I I don't think it's funny because every every episode we've done previous to this, we've like walked away like, that's it.
Jim:Oh, yeah. That's the one. Yep.
T.C.:And, you know, maybe because we're challenging ourselves more with something like this or maybe I maybe I just came with too many ideas. No. This defeats the purpose of the show. I should have came in with a clean slate.
Jim:No. No. It's it's it's gonna happen. Right? It's it's I I have one I have one in the In the chamber.
Jim:In the chamber that that that I got some I got some very strong ideas about. I don't know if it's necessarily as refined as as your Batman versus Superman is, but I I have I have some very strong ideas about Well, I'm some future episodes.
T.C.:I look forward to that. I am also looking forward to hearing from fans and our listeners. We have been having a growing audience, and we're we're thankful for that. You've people started tweeting us ideas. Next, episode, we're actually doing one of our listeners' requests, which is very exciting.
T.C.:You can find us on Instagram at studio demands it. I know that's where one of our requests came from. And you can also hit me up at t c's big head. We have a website for the show, studiodemandsit.com. You can subscribe on iTunes.
T.C.:You can subscribe on Google Play you can just play it right off the websites. And I would be remiss to forget I forgot to do this in one of the other episodes. I have to thank Six Five Media for giving us
Jim:this show. Thank you very much.
T.C.:I forgot to do that. Episodes. I I do apologize for that. But, yeah, that's it. Jim, any final final words?
T.C.:What's your what's your Twitter handle? You were
T.C.:just looking it up. I was
Jim:just yeah. Was trying I was trying to look it up. Because I think I think the I think I got it wrong a previous time. It's I think it's Tubac Waxah.
T.C.:We're never gonna know.
Jim:No. No. We're never no one no one's gonna find that.
T.C.:Who is this guy? You could tweet at me if you want me to talk to Jim for you. Yeah. Alright. So, well, that's it for the episode.
T.C.:We'll be back next time with another challenge to improve the world of cinema or at least improve it to the point that we can agree it's at least sort of better than what we got. And maybe next time we'll agree wholeheartedly and walk away having met the studio demands and giving you a movie that leaves all of you listening saying, I wanna see that. Why didn't that make the why didn't the why that one didn't make it happen?
Jim:Yeah. Yeah. That actually is what I hear people saying that all the time.
T.C.:Yeah. Just the babbling
Jim:Yeah. Incoherent. Walking out of theaters. Why does this
T.C.:make Laser Eyes Strong Fly.
Jim:So many what if they did aw. That that's that's always the reaction you want walking out of movies. Aw.
T.C.:That's the and then leads you to make a podcast where you try to fix Hypothetically. Mhmm. Alright. Thanks, Jim.
Jim:Thanks, t z.
T.C.:Thanks, listeners. That's that's it. That's the end the show.
Jim:Bye.
T.C.:K. Bye.